Off Road Oz

[Halasz]

Read the cams manual and tell me what you think.
General requirements, Schedule G,
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/10_gen_req/GQ08_Schedule_G_Q110.pdf

Section 1 General.
Third sentence: "OTHER THAN for pump fuel, mixing is forbidden."
They are pump fuel. So mixing is not forbidden.

Section 7 Additives.
"Any substance, other than air, incorporated into the fuel subsequent to its final blending by the producing oil company is deemed to be an additive."
It's not an additive, it's the fuel, commercially available pump fuel in fact. It just so happens there's two fuels. Where does it say you can only use one fuel?

You'd think the next sentence could be a problem "Nothing in the foregoing shall be deemed to prohibit the addition of water, an approved lead replacement additive* or a lubricant provided that such additive does not increase the octane or cetane rating, oxygen content or specific heat content of the fuel."
So there it is! Cetane improvement is the reason you can't run gas right? WRONG. That doesn't matter because LPG is not water, it is not a lead replacement and it is not a lubricant.
The sentence is clearly and specifically talking about those three types of substance.

People seem pretty sure that they can't run Diesel with LPG. Why not?
I'd rather discuss it beforehand if there is likely to be misunderstanding either way.
It would be a shame to spend the money on an LPG fumigation system then have to remove it because I missed something in the manual.

Aside from the technical discussion of compliance with the rules....
LPG fumigation has proven environmental benefits over diesel alone. Environmental responsibility is not something that usually goes with motorsport and should be encouraged to ensure the future of the sport.

[Flatout Off Road Racing]

Im sure Leeroy has a response for you but doesnt want to give you a headache.
For some reason Ive always been under the impression that there was a rule somewhere saying no LPG, Im guessing Dan will be able to clear it up for you.
Cheers, Jason
_________________
Go the 80

[Halasz]

Haha, yes..
He's very well spoken (well, typed). Has the gift of language and it takes me more effort than usual to read it.. No offence intended, it was a poorly thought out tagline and I apologise if I did put anyone's nose out of joint.
Me, I'm not so good with words n stuff.

Back to the topic I'm sure I'm missing something somewhere, maybe in another secition of the manual.
It's a shame because the LPG really livens up a diesel and reducing the soot is a good thing. For vehicles that are eligible for the rebates it's cheap horsepower. A bit of compensation for the weight penalties of keeping it road legal.

There is a requirement for special markings with LPG and that's about it as long as it is a legal install AFAIK. If released from the tank it'll dissipate quicker than spilled liquid fuels, the downside before it's dissipated it's evaporating and mixing with the air much faster than petrol would.

Edit: Hey I just thought of something, it would certainly make things interesting if it was allowed in class 7 only.

[Dan]

What's class 7?
_________________
Daniel Rogers

If you think you can or you think you can't - you are right! (Henry Ford)

www.westerndesertracers.com

[Halasz]

Ok, Production 4wd then smartypants.
The ones which have three digit numbers starting with a 7 not an 8.

67 views, one vote other than mine. Not exactly a controversial topic, in fact it seems no-one really cares either way so what's your interpretation of the rules Dan?

[Leeroy]

I think you will find the ambiguity in some statements included in the manual may allow any interpretation the reader sees fit.

"Other than for pump fuel, the mixing of fuels from
different oil companies, or of different grades and/or types of fuel from the same oil company is forbidden"

Does the exception for pump fuel refer only to the first example, ie the mixing of fuels from different oil companies, or does it refer also to the the use of "different grade and/or types of fuel from the same oil company"?

What if you use different grades and/or types of fuel from DIFFERENT oil companies??

One could also argue that "fuel" refers to the final state of the substance that enters the combustion chamber, in which case the 55 cetane restriction may be a barrier.

The manual also states that in circuit races, LPG is forbidden in races involving refuelling. Now does multi-lap WAORC racing come under that category of "circuit races"? I suspect not... but nevertheless, is it deemed to "involve refuelling" by nature of the fact that allowance is made for refuelling, even if you do not require it your self? And does that only mean between laps, or even between sections?

I would ask CAMS themselves, they may find that more appropriately worded clarification is in order.

I wonder if this has been asked before? Diesels are widespread in winch challenge events but as far as I know only Russell was so poor that he thought he could save money on fuel by racing a sooty, so you may be the one to set a precedent if further research encourages you to go with the gas option.

Interesting question.

[Halasz]

I'll ask some diesel people if the cetane over 55 is going to be a problem, I have no idea but think it'd be close. The way it works is by assisting flame propagation through the diesel. The increase in power is greater than the energy content of the LPG added. This means less soot and sparks out the exhaust.

I'd say the bit about races involving refuelling would be a showstopper if putting fuel in the tank was a mandatory part of the race. As in forced pit stops as opposed to Parc Ferme.
It's virtually impossible to refuel safely in a paddock away from a service station.
Very little gas is used and a 35 litre useable volume tank would last for at least 230 litres of diesel when driven hard. In race conditions a 500km would be easily acheived.

Diesel + LPG companies use performance gains as the main focus of their marketing. It gives me a good change of getting some sponsorship without a season or 2 of proven performance under my belt.

If it all looks sensible I'll write a letter to CAMS.

[Doita]

How many times have you raced this new car of yours to be able to find out that it is slower than you are capable of driving it ??
_________________
"It's not the greatest truck in the world. This is just a tribute"

[Halasz]

Precisely zero Doita, in fact I've only driven it about 40km.

I have another GQ... It's got a fair bit more poke than the sootchucker at the moment. three things make me back off in that... bashing bump stops, cooking shocks and shrinking balls because it hasn't got a cage.
That only has a non-intercooled TD05H turbo and LPG. It's tuned about as hard as it can go with high EGT being the limiting factor.
I've been living in the pilbara for the last 5 years and have been giving it heaps on station tracks regularly. As it is now the sootchucker feels slow to me, and I'm used to carting about 150 litres of diesel, god knows how much weight in recovery gear, water, camping gear....

I believe the suspension package is quite well sorted in the sootchucker, though the rear feels like it should be a bit stiffer on the rebound but I'll defer to Russ's experience until I give it ten tenths on the dirt.

To be fair this motor hasn't been on the dyno, but without the LPG the non-intercooled turbo just isn't going to cut it.
I'll flog the old turbo kit off once the new package is finalised, I'm still not sure if I'll use the manifold or not. So if any of you have a Nissan TD42 in your tow vehicle this would be ideal for you. It's still in very good condition.

Edit: Half the reason I bought this particular vehicle is the extra practice and the rolling spares... I was looking at super 1650s until then.

[Halasz]

The official word from CAMS is: It would not be in compliance with Schedule G.

But it could be considered if a good case was put forward to AORCom and would ultimately need Board approval.
In my opinion not worth the effort unless there were a lot more diesel vehicles about.

[tumbleweed]

Go racing - have fun - worry about speed later. There is alot to sort out before you need to worry about power!!!

For what its worth I was one of the NO votes but was admiring your argument!
_________________
"Excercise? thats a dirty word now wash your mouth out with beer"
www.rumblemotorsport.com

[andyhi696]

Hi, I am not sure about the legality or not of using lpg but back in the 80s there was a rx7 rally car here running on lpg and even ran arc events. I would suggest that you contact your state off road panel and ask that it be put up tp aorcom and if nesessary to take it further
Good luck

[Halasz]

Thanks Andy, at this stage it's not worth the effort for me to pursue just yet. I may put together a more formal request in future if I need more power than I can get out of diesel only and it's cheaper than the various petrol V8 conversions available.

Edit: Also it's simpler for licensing the vehicle with the original type of engine in it.

[Leeroy]

Did you also consider that use of LPG may also revert you to the engine capacity requirement of a petrol? You would have a max of 3.5 litres with a turbo, I believe.

[Halasz]

Well there's the showstopper Leeroy. Bloody obvious now that you've pointed it out.